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Market Blog - Written by Doug Winter on Monday, September 14, 2009 12:08 - 9 Comments

The “Deal Shopping” Mentality and Rare Coin Prices

I had an interesting experience at the Long Beach show that I thought was worth sharing. A new-to-the-market collector/investor came up to my table and asked to see my “best coins.” I was happy to share them with him and pulled out a gorgeous 1802 quarter eagle in PCGS AU58 and a lovely 1798/7 eagle in PCGS AU55. After some back-and-forth negotiating, I could see this deal was not going to get done. The reasons why it didn’t are what I want to briefly discuss.

Now let me say in advance that the individual that I was dealing with is younger than I am, better looking than I am, smarter than I am and without a doubt much, much richer than I am. He’s someone whose family has had tremendous success investing in other areas and he is a recent convert to the rare coin market. But I think he’s approaching coins from a totally wrong perspective.

This guy likes deals. And he likes sexy, interesting coins. In other words, he wants to buy the best coins that I (or other dealers) have but he wants to buy them at levels that are unqualified, unquestionable “deals.” Good market or bad market, I don’t see this happening.

One thing that I have learned as a dealer in the last few years is that really good coins are really hard to find. Most of the great old-time collections have been dispersed and you just don’t see many “old time Gems” any more. Any when you do, like in the instance of the recent Naftzger Collection of late date Large Cents, the pent-up demand for the fresh, superb coins is so strong that they sell for crazy prices.

The investor I mentioned comes from a real estate background and he is, no doubt, used to panic sellers who have a nice piece of property but who are in over their heads and have to bail. Quickly. This doesn’t really seem to happen much anymore in the coin market. The speculators who bought the “deals” in the last Bull Market are the guys who bought the overgraded, overrated “stuff” that, in retrospect, maybe wasn’t such a good deal after all. The guys who bought the great coins and paid up for them aren’t selling. They aren’t selling because they don’t have to and because they know that what they have can’t be easily replaced. The “stuff” is what you tend to see, over and over, in auctions.

In the coin market, price buyers invariably wind-up with the worst possible coins for the grade. As I have mentioned before, there are coins with huge variations of value within a specific grade. For example, there are MS65 1795 half eagles that I think are worth well over $500,000 And there are MS65 1795 half eagles that I wouldn’t pay $350,000 for. The guys who “like the deals” are always going to wind up with the substandard coin. No ands, ifs or buts. It always works out this way.

That’s not to say that there aren’t good values in the coin market. I can think of dozens and dozens of coins that are undervalued in relation to their rarity and level of demand. I think that’s what the deal-hunters don’t understand. The real deals in numismatics come with knowledge of coins, not buying something for 10% less than Greysheet Bid. The Greysheet is never going to teach you that, as an example, an 1864-S eagle is a sensational value at double current published levels.

I realize that this sounds like a self-serving dealer blog justifying the “need” to stick a high price tag on nice coins. It’s not meant to be that but I can understand that interpretation. I just was sorry to see a potentially great customer pass on two incredible coins for his collection because they weren’t “deals.”



9 Comments

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dpankratz - Sep 14, 2009  04:49 pm

Parenthetically, I’d be curious how you distinguish a speculator from an investor in the realm of rare coins. Coins have a negative carrying cost, so a common distinction used in the world of equity and real estate investments (net present value of future cash flows for investments, greater fool theory for speculations) doesn’t work. I’ve never been comfortable with a distinction based solely on holding period either, as time to realized profit can vary due to market factors totally outside of one’s control. Anyway, would be interested in your thoughts.

Craig Griffin - Sep 14, 2009  07:08 pm

Doug, some of these individuals such as you described today are actually not so nieve. Thay are hoping to obtain some valuable information from you about coins, and all for free as well. But I must admit that some great dealers assisted me for free when I came back into numismatics some years ago. These dealers most likely percieved that at the time, there was no sale involved for them (yet). Although you were giving him your best information with no slae at stake, I hope that your Long Beach show was asuccess overall.

Coinbert - Sep 15, 2009  07:04 am

It’s a shame that this new investor/collector did not try to learn more about rarity and quality while talking to you. He will probably wind up purchasing mostly coins in white holders that will be hard to resell for the huge profits he is expecting. He should stick to modern proof sets and mint sets if he only wants to buy at 10% below sheet. Cb

RYK - Sep 15, 2009  07:26 am

I have heard it summarized best as…

“Great coins ain’t cheap and cheap coins ain’t great.”

Martin Kaplan - Sep 15, 2009  08:19 pm

Doug, one of the most important articles you have written…and how few people who read it will understand? MK

Tony - Sep 16, 2009  09:52 am

I just had to respond to this blog. I image my profile is somewhat similar to the guy in the blog. I am new to collecting and could have very easily taken the same approach. I was fortunate enough to meet Doug and read all of his articles. I also read a book by Bowers where he talks about the collector/dealer relationship. He states that when transacting both sides should leave something on the table. This seems to me like very sound advice not only for the begginer but for the advanced collector as well. This leaving something on the table in theory is perhaps a short term cost but a long term virtue. Tony

RGM - Sep 16, 2009  08:00 pm

Doug,
I have alway thought that if any new collector/investor was lucky enough to run into dealers that treat their customers like you do, the coin market would be much stronger than it is.
I strongly believe that the coin market is one of the worst places to be a price buyer.
In fact I also feel that your clients have probably fared very well from a strictly financial standpoint if they heed your advice.

Larry Jackson - Sep 20, 2009  04:47 pm

Coin Collectors: don’t get suckered into the “premoted” rare coins. As Doug would tell that these type of coins are not really rare at all. This includes coins such as the 1909-S VDB Cent, 1932-D/S Quarter, 1916-D dime, and 1893-s dollar. Even the 1856 flying eagle and the 1907 High Relief are not at all really rare. I’ll go a step further and say that the 1929 Saint and the 1892 Liberty head double eagle are not that rare due to recent finds.

Rare coins like the 1854-O and 1856-O are rare but mabe overpriced when one looks at an 1864-s half eagle that is ever bit as rare but at a much better price.

Be Smart!

Larry Jackson

JLRiddell - Sep 23, 2009  07:18 pm

Doug,

You were inspired with this blog. The problem with coins is that good values take a great deal of knowledge to see. That is also why it is fun. As a relatively new entrant to coins (5 years) I realize that I know only some of what is required to appreciate valuation. And then, even with your help, I occasionally get it wrong - although just as often we also miss the coin. Knowledge of value comes from knowing coins on multiple dimensions. Many of your blogs cover a particular dimension, such as coin, grade, issue, series, denomination. This is why it is best to be a specialist matched with a great dealer. Then, you have a chance, if your emotions don’t get in the way.

Still, if this guy is smart, maybe his interest will grow, and one day he will be smart and wise.

JL

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